Talk:Thelema

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Revision as of 02:32, 27 Feb 2005

Table of contents

1 DISCUSSION: Different views of Thelema

1.1 Ash's solution
1.2 Thiebes' solution
1.3 Isomeme's revision to Ash's solution
1.4 Aleph's Solution

2 SIDE DISCUSSION

3 Other Personalities in Liber Legis, edits

4 Different Views of Thelema

DISCUSSION: Different views of Thelema

To all editors: this discussion surrounds the following paragraph currently in Thelema:

Different views of Thelema

Not all adherents of Thelema consider it a religion or subscribe to the philosophy of True Will as outlined in Aleister Crowley's writings. Thelemites may or may not believe in the necessity of Canon or Theology as outlined in this article. Many require nothing more than an acceptance of the message of The Book of the Law as interpreted by the individual, each for him or herself.

There is debate over the appropriateness of this paragraph. Thelemapedia is inviting you to share your opinion and offer solutions. Please put your comments in a sub-header: e.g. ===My Solution===

Ash's solution

I believe this statement is subtractive, rather than additive, and provides no substantive information from the knowedge base. However, I agree with the principle of including alternative points of view, which is why I added the link to the new article, Alternative Views of Thelema. I think the paragraph in Thelema article should be more generic, such as:

Thelema is many things to many people, and no single definition can encapsulate it for every Thelemite. It can be experienced and manifested as (but not limited to) religion, philosophy, a set of practices, a system of magick, ethical guidelines, lifestyle, culture, or political viewpoint. Even the requirements for being a Thelemite are not clear, and are often defined by the individual herself. There are also Thelemic movements that have serious differences in opinion from Aleister Crowley and his interpretations of Liber Legis.

For a more complete review on these differences, see Alternative Views of Thelema.

What do you think?

Thiebes' solution

Since Crowley himself has written some things which would appear to support the nonreligious view of Thelema, and since I myself know personally several adherents to this view, it seems obvious to me that this view should be included, along with the various ways that people reconcile (or reduce) Crowley's apparent self-contradiction on the topic.

I notice there is an entry for "Thelema and Religion." This seems to be the most appropriate place, to me, to discuss the question of whether Thelema is or is not a religion. Indeed, that is where quotes from Crowley supporting the religious view are found (rather than in the article on Thelema).

Ash, your paragraph beginning with "Thelema is many things to many people" minimizes the important fact that Crowley himself wrote contradictory things on the question of whether Thelema is a religion. I find it a rather condescending approach.

My solution is as follows. I don't actually have time to write the final text as I'm imagining it, but basically add a couple of sentences in the article on "Thelema" about this controversy. Refer to the "Thelema and Religion" article. Then move the "Different views" paragraph to the latter article, add quotes from Crowley to support the position (as in MWT), and describe the relationship of Thelema to Religion as one which draws continued controversy. Finally remove the "Alternative views" article since the very title suggests that the views are not to be found in the literature.

Isomeme's revision to Ash's solution

I think the key problem is that all religion (or mysticism, or whatever label you choose) is in the end subjective, so to say that Thelema is a matter of interpretation and opinion verges on tautology. Here's my proposed rewrite of Ash's first paragraph above:

Thelema, like any religious or mystical system, is in the end a matter of personal experience. There is no objective standard to determine who is or is not a Thelemite, nor what beliefs, practices, interpretations, or goals are compatible or incompatible with Thelema. Unlike some religious systems, there is no single authority which claims jurisdiction over Thelemic orthodoxy, leaving the field open to a variety of organizations, movements, and individuals, each approaching Thelema differently.

The only seemingly unequivocal instruction Thelema provides in this matter is this line from the Class A Comment on Liber AL: "All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself."

I think this is a very good improvement on my paragraph. You got closer to what I was trying to say. Fr. Ash

Thiebes, I'm not sure I follow your argument re "Alternate Views". These alternatives are very much to be found in "the literature", taking that to mean the work of modern self-identified Thelemites. Can you clarify, please?

Isomeme

The "Alternative Views" (such as the one that Thelema is not a religion) are also found in Crowley and calling them "Alternative" gives the impression that they are not. --Thiebes

"Alternative" in no way should mean "not in the literature." This should be backed up by editors using Crowley (and others, hopefully) to support their entries. Further, this article shouldn't focus only on the "religion-ness" of Thelema, and should also present ideas on culture, ethics, politics, etc. I think the article "Thelema and Religion" should stick to how Thelema does manifest as a religion, rather than being a page for debate on religion. Fr. Ash

But I think "Alternative" implies not mainstream (and that it's a minority view) and I'm not sure that's the case.

Would you be more comfortable if the article were called "Views on Thelema"? Do you have any other suggestions? It's not too late to rename the article. Fr. Ash

If "alternative" should not be read to mean, "alternative to Crowley," then what is it alternative to? In any case, if the article is renamed "Views on Thelema," then there is no meaningful difference between this article and the main one, I think. Personally I think that "Thelema & Religion" is the perfect place to describe the different views on "Thelema & Religion" -- the relationship of Thelema to religion, including the view that Thelema is a religion, and the view that Thelema is not a religion. I also agree with Aleph about the various sections that should logically be put elsewhere. I'll work on the text of my proposed solution and post it as soon as I can. --Thiebes

That said, I like Isomeme's proposal. z111

Aleph's Solution

I don't think there is anything here that needs to be solved. While I originated this paragraph, it was added to by one other person, and rewritten in its current form by Ash. I have to say, none of the rewrites proposed address the actual issues in the current paragraph, but rather try to gloss over the existance of non-religious Thelemites who specifically reject religious elements such as Church, Canon, Creed & Mass.

Fr. Ash: It is the rejection part that is the problem here. Under this rule, we should mention that some Thelemites reject Crowley, the Law as it's stated, Liber Legis in it's present form, and every thing else on the page. By putting it all under one banner that says "there are many interpretation of Thelema", we don't get bogged down in specifics on the main page, while providing a link to them elsewhere.

Why is it bogging down? I think the rest of the article gets bogged down with an implicit acceptance of the religious view. Shall I start a debate on the use of the word "Theology" and start a debate that the list of the "Canon" should be moved into Thelema & Religion? I don't think so. I think the correct approach is to say up front that the issue of "Religion" is one that divides Thelemites into two camps. That is simply the truth, and glossing over it does not accurately represent the issue. Aleph

I have to severely disagree with moving it to the Thelema & Religion page. The whole point is that this is a view about Thelema and should be in the Thelema article. Then the religious camp can explain their position further in Thelema & Religion and the alternative view camp can elaborate on their views in Alternative Views of Thelema.

Fr. Ash: I agree here completely.

I have to ask - does anyone here proposing solutions propose to move the stuff about the "Theology of Thelema" and "The Thelemic Canon", and any other religious elements out of this article? If not, this is where the section "Different views of Thelema" belongs - as a disclaimer before the religious elaborate on their creed.

Fr. Ash: Those things are central to Thelema...they are constantly referred to in Thelemic literature, and provide much of its backbone. Just because one doesn't like them doesn't mean they don't exist or play a major role in defining what Thelema is. Also, there is nothing in those sections about religion, other than the term "holy books" which is how the author described them.

The point here is that there are Thelemites who accept only the Book of the Law. What is an is not "Thelemic" literature depends on the Thelemite. The Canon is not referred to in the Book of the Law. This has nothing to do with whether or not one accepts Crowley. This has to do with how an individual interprets the BotL. Some interpretations do not get into any of the additional stuff that Crowley piled on above and beyond the BoL. Your insistence that the Canon is "central" to Thelema is simply your own opinion. What is being rejected here is the projection of that opinion, no matter how prevalent within O.T.O., onto all Thelemites. Quite frankly, taking all Thelemites as a whole, I suspect that the O.T.O. opinion is actually a minority opinion on this matter. Aleph

What I think this comes down to is that there are specific religous Thelemites here who dislike this paragraph—they find it incovenient to their goals. That is not sufficient reason for removing it. I myself dislike the subsequent use in this article of words like Theology and Canon. Having these in the article on Thelema imples that they are considered necessary or accepted by all Thelemites, which they are not. However, I did not try to remove these, but simply pre-qualify them with the fact that not all Thelemites would agree with the rest of the article.

Aleph

Fr. Ash: It's not very useful to argue the merits of information based on conjecture of other people's motivations, so let's try to avoid accusations of suppression...they don't help and only make this forum more combative. Also, I think there is a major point of confusion about this issue: the elements in the article describe things that exist, not how Thelemites interpret or use those things. There is nothing in the article that says "All Thelemites believe..." or "The interpretation of these documents are..." By using Isomeme's paragraph, we lose the "religious/non-religious" duality, and broaden it to include all possible manifestations of Thelema. I feel far more comfortable taking the big view on this issue, rather than creating an unnecessary battle about Thelema and religion. Let those viewpoints be documented on "Alternative Views".

But the religious/non-religious dicotomy is the whole point of the paragraph. What this boils down to is that I am trying to make a point, and you and others would prefer that this point not be brought up here. I don't want my point watered down - it is the essence of the issue. As you say, some reject Crowley, the Book of the Law, etc., but that can be discussed on the alternative views page. There is and does exist a division of Thelemites into religious and non-religious. That is why one page is called Thelema & Religion in the first place. It doesn't make sense to say that things are to be divided between Thelema & Religion and Alternative Views of Thelema, but then say that the basis of that distinction cannot be mentioned in the paragraph that provides the introduction to the Alternative Views of Thelema article. Aleph

Fr. Ash: I understand you want the idea of the religious/non-religious dictomy up front, but I would argue that that dichotomy is, in itself, not a defining aspect of the system of Thelema, but rather of modern Thelemic culture. In other words, there is nothing within the structure of Thelema itself that requires a split between those who see Thelema as a religion and those who don't. If you wanted to discuss the various cultural aspects of Thelema, one of which being a section that denies its more religious components, then that discussion could fit under a "Thelemic Culture" sub-section. As a comparison, Isomeme's paragraph actually discusses ideas that are (arguably) intergral aspects built into the structure of Thelema itself. Can you think of a way to include your more specific point into his paragraph? Let's try to find a compromise.

I propose we wait and see what text Thiebes proposes. He seems to understand that Crowley's writings themselves contain the dichotomy, and seems to have more understanding for both sides. Quite frankly, I don't like either your take on it or Isomeme's revision thereof. Also, we should let some time pass to allow other editors who may not log in daily to chip in. Aleph

SIDE DISCUSSION

This article seems to go beyond its topic. For example, the section entitled "The Speakers of Liber AL" logically belongs in the article on the Book of the Law.

The section entitled "Other personalities presented in Liber Legis" logically belongs in Thelemic Godforms.

The section entitled "The Thelemic Canon" logically belongs in Thelema & Religion.

Why not simply present a shorter summary here, and move the detailed expositions to the articles where they actually belong? IMO, a short sweet overview of the basics of Thelema is what should be in this article. If these changes were made, the other issue being discussed should prove easier to resolve. Aleph

Other Personalities in Liber Legis, edits

I edited the Hrumachis summary, because it reflected an inaccurate reading of Liber AL. Hrumachis is RHK, who will "arise" (i.e. vacate the Throne of the Aeon) at the future Equinox of the Gods. "The double-wanded one" is Thmaist (Maat), who is not Hrumachis. But see how quickly this sort of thing gets pestilential?

Thanks for the technical corrections. Fr. Ash

I'm not sure this is correct. Doesn't Hru-machis mean "Horus of the Star" while RHK means "Horus of the Two Horizons"? I have always thought that they are two different forms of Horus. What you say about arise is attractive, but not convincing unless there is something that shows that the Egyptians considered the two identical. Neither the old nor new comment mentions this identity... Aleph

"Two different forms of Horus" is fine. I wasn't trying to establish any more precise equivalence than that. In the Extenuation ("New Comment," so-called by Regardie), Crowley takes a somewhat different tack, vaguely identifiying Hrumachis with "any new course of events." Still it was expressly as "Harmachis" (among others) that Crowley invoked Horus--who then revealed himself as the Lord of the Aeon--in the Cairo working; see the Great Invocation, section Beta II Beth.

Also, I am in turn skeptical of your implied assertion that Egyptological data are final arbiters regarding the "personalities" (as the present article has it) who wear their names and attributes in Thelemic literature and doctrine.--Paradoxosalpha 21:46, 24 Feb 2005 (CST)

Also, how did Chaos get into this list? Where does that name appear in Liber Legis? --Paradoxosalpha 16:36, 22 Feb 2005 (CST)

RIght you are. However, the list was intended to reflect "dieties" that are promenant in Thelema, not just Liber AL. Perhaps the header should change to include all Thelemic holy books? Fr. Ash

I certainly prefer the present "personalities" to "deities," in terms of avoiding metaphysical recklessness. As it stands, every entry on the list can be found in Liber Legis except for Chaos. If you open it up to all the Holy Books, it's a real can of worms: Adonai from Liber LXV? Iacchus and Al A'ain the Priest from Liber VII? All 44 spirits from CCXXXII?--Paradoxosalpha 21:46, 24 Feb 2005 (CST)

While "deities" is problematic as a term, I'm not convinced that "personalities" as a designator really works either - its absence in the literature doesn't lend a lot of support for its use. Personally, I think the differentiations are important and should be delineated where possible. For example: "Archangels" could include Ithuriel, as "Genii" could include Malkunofat from Liber 231.

 - aishmlchmh

Different Views of Thelema

It's silly to make a big deal out of the insistence of some professed Thelemites that Thelema is not a religion. This issue does not pertain specifically to Thelema, but rather to religion generally. It is very common (as Google will show) to find Christians who say that Christianity is not a religion ("It's a personal relationship with Jesus!"), Muslims who say that Islam is not a religion ("It's a way of life!"), Jews who say that Judaism is not religion ("It's a heritage!"), etc. etc. In virtually all cases, this rhetorical trope appears to be an attempt to priviledge the "non-religion" of the adherent above all of the other mere religions. As an aspiring source of "academic" information on Thelema, Thelemapedia shouldn't capitulate to such gambits. If we must take note of them, we should properly contextualize them as a feature of religious discourse that transcends creed and tradition. Here (http://www.islamfortoday.com/islamisareligion.htm) is a fairly articulate essay on this topic from the perpective of an American convert to Islam.--Paradoxosalpha 22:14, 24 Feb 2005 (CST)

You're right. It's silly to make such a big deal out if it as you are doing. Also, by implying that the inclusion of a single paragraph is silly, you are dismissing the views of actual groups of people and their beliefs, and implying that their beliefs are silly. Is this an attempt to marginalize a subset of Thelemites? Is the front page claim of Thelemapedia, "Everyone from every corner of the Thelemic universe is welcome to add knowledge to the encyclopedia by becoming an editor," simply a falsehood, a gambit to attract more editors for this Wiki, perhaps with the intent to quietly edit out non-orthodox views at a later date when those editors are no longer actively paying attention? Aleph

Retrieved from "http://thelemapedia.org/index.php/Talk:Thelema"

 [[User:Isomeme|Isomeme]]
-:The "Alternative Views" (such as the one that Thelema is not a religion) are also found ''in Crowley'' and calling them "Alternative" gives the impression that they are not. --[[User:Thiebes|Thiebes]] 14:44, 26 Feb 2005 (CST)
+:The "Alternative Views" (such as the one that Thelema is not a religion) are also found ''in Crowley'' and calling them "Alternative" gives the impression that they are not. --[[User:Thiebes|Thiebes]]
 ::"Alternative" in no way should mean "not in the literature." This should be backed up by editors using Crowley (and others, hopefully) to support their entries. Further, this article shouldn't focus only on the "religion-ness" of Thelema, and should also present ideas on culture, ethics, politics, etc. I think the article "Thelema and Religion" should stick to how Thelema ''does'' manifest as a religion, rather than being a page for debate on religion. [[User:Ash|Fr. Ash]]
 ::::Would you be more comfortable if the article were called "Views on Thelema"? Do you have any other suggestions? It's not too late to rename the article. [[User:Ash|Fr. Ash]]
+:::::If "alternative" should not be read to mean, "alternative to Crowley," then what is it alternative to? In any case, if the article is renamed "Views on Thelema," then there is no meaningful difference between this article and the main one, I think. Personally I think that "Thelema & Religion" is the perfect place to describe the different views on "Thelema & Religion" -- the relationship of Thelema to religion, including the view that Thelema is a religion, and the view that Thelema is not a religion. I also agree with Aleph about the various sections that should logically be put elsewhere. I'll work on the text of my proposed solution and post it as soon as I can. --[[User:Thiebes|Thiebes]]
 :::That said, I like Isomeme's proposal. [[User:z111|z111]]