Talk:Non-religious Thelemites and their views

(Revision as of 18:56, 9 Mar 2005)

Two takes

Fr. Ash : Something to consider: this article might be made more neutral if it were split into two main sections:

It is possible to define Thelema as something other than a religion, offering various example definitions found in the literature or common enough to be considered common knowledge.
A focus on components of Thelema that are not overtly religous, such as philosophy/practice/ethics/lifestyle/etc. This section would not be about refuting the religious label, but detailing aspects that many might not label as religious.

This article is currently more of an argument for the non-religious view, rather that an encyclopedic source of knowledge, which falls out of the scope of Thelemapedia. Naturally there will be some support for the view needed, but the tone is somewhat defensive and combative, and it doesn't need to be that way. By splitting up the article into two major sections as outlined above, the piece might become more neutrally informative than argumentitive. Remember, the goal is not to convince the reader, but to inform.

I don't think it comes off as an argument. I consider it informational about contemporary Thelemic culture. In any case, it is under development. Give it a few weeks. Aleph

Use this article to discuss unorthodox interpretations of Thelema or its various off-shoots. Again, please try to stick with either the knowledge base or common knowledge. In other words, please limit entries to views or practices held by reasonably substantial numbers of people. Examples might be a focus on satanism or the various cults of Babalon. Fr. Ash

This is a, IMO, a much better way to allow for expansion than simply moving the section around in a much longer article. Aleph

I thought so too. I really hope editors add a lot of great material here. Fr. Ash

The question remains: Alternative to what? By placing these nonreligious views in this article instead of the "Thelema & Religion" article, all that is being accomplished is to ghettoize the contemporary perspectives. Why not include this stuff in the section in Thelema & Religion where the question of differentiating between the religious and nonreligious is directly discussed?? This is what was proposed by myself and Paradoxos Alpha, and you said you wanted to see how it turned out. Why are you now, before it has been completed, trying to have it both ways? It makes for a very confusing presentation of the material and reduces the possibility that the material which you have included here will be found by those who are examining the question. --Thiebes 00:37, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

I disagree. I feel that forcing non-religious views of Thelema into an article about "Thelema & Religion" is ghettoizing it. You are hiding the views down at the end of an article no one is going to read through. I am open to changes to the title of this article. I don't want my discussion at the end of your article. Thanks. Aleph

You haven't even looked at it if you think it's at the end. --Thiebes 10:01, 9 Mar 2005 (CST) Nevertheless I think the solution of calling your separate article non-religious and using that within the main article as a template could work.

The point is that it is essentially hidden is a large article mostly discussing religion. I did look at it. It hides and qualifies my views in a way that I don't agree with. As I said before, the topic deserves two viewpoints and two articles. Please simply link to the Non-religious Views of Thelema rather than attempting to copy or source this article into Thelema & Religion. This is an article that stands on its own, and it is not finished. I intend to expand it significantly. The whole point of trying to force me to put my material into Thelema & Religion seems to be to pre-qualify the idea of Thelema as "not a religion" with a "but it really is" context. I don't agree that that accurately reflects the views that I am attempting to document. Aleph

You wrote: The whole point of trying to force me to put my material into Thelema & Religion seems to be to pre-qualify the idea of Thelema as "not a religion" with a "but it really is" context

No, the point is to present the facts of both views together with traditional means to examine the question. Like you would find done in an encyclopedia, as opposed to an editorial article where one opinion is presented. --Thiebes 10:20, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

Look, if you and Ash and P.A. and the other O.T.O editors are intending to force me to do it your way, just say so. I will go elsewhere and stop wasting my time trying to discuss the issue with you. Aleph 10:26, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

I have no doubt that is what you'd rather believe, than to simply confront, with logical argument, the question of what it is that you are trying to do. Instead you resort to these kinds of veiled accusations. --Thiebes 10:28, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

Time will tell, I guess. I am not trying to do anything other than write an article in the way I believe the information in it will be presented most clearly. It is typical on Wikipedia to break an article into sections when it gets too long or the presentation is trying to cover multiple viewpoints or schools of thought. I have added up front the distinguishing feature of this article and a pointer to the involved discussion of Thelema & Religion. I'm sorry you disagree with me, but can't we agree to disagree? Aleph 10:38, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

Fine. I wish you would have given me a chance to complete my work before reverting my edits, or at least discussed your reservations rather than simply "giving up" as you put it. But whatever. --Thiebes 10:41, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

I genuinely feel fine about the two articles they way they ended up. My concern was actually that the nonreligious view would be marginalized by being separated into a different article (especially by the name "Alternative"), but the way you have implemented it avoids the problem fairly well and works out better in the end. One thought I had was that the nonreligious article could potentially cite the definition of religion in the thelema & religion article that gives the model by which Thelema is considered nonreligious (the "Greek Thought" bit I mentioned above). --Thiebes 12:56, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

The section called "Contemporary Opinions" ... I'm not sure whether we want those, do we? There is a question of credibility of contemporaries, and that they may well change their minds. We can study Crowley's opinions and decide which of them seem fairly persistant throughout his life, etc. But we cannot do this with contemporaries so much. I should add that I'm quoted there, something I wrote years ago which I now find narrow-minded -- not to mention I hardly consider myself an authority worthy of quotation in a scholarly encyclopedia, which is the point that I'm trying to bring up here. --Thiebes 10:41, 9 Mar 2005 (CST)

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