Arguments against Thelema being a religion - Revision history

Thiebes: /* Contemporary Opinions */ - noted that quote of myself differs from my present views

2005-11-19T09:03:43Z

Contemporary Opinions: - noted that quote of myself differs from my present views

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	*"If we define religion as the institutionalization of solutions to the problems of egocentric power, it is clear that Thelema is not a religion." -- Michael Sanborn, ''Transcending the Predator''.		*"If we define religion as the institutionalization of solutions to the problems of egocentric power, it is clear that Thelema is not a religion." -- Michael Sanborn, ''Transcending the Predator''.

	*"Thelema is a law of nature. It does not require faith, service, devotion, worship, commitment, institutions, attitudes, practices, conformity, causes, principles, or beliefs. (See dictionary definition of religion.) Christianity requires most (if not all) of these things. … Thelema is not a religion. The confusion arises because religious praxis (i.e. practice) is often used in order to understand Thelema and to live in harmony with it. … The Mass has all these things. Thelema does not require them. The fact that the Mass has these elements does not mean that those elements must be present in order to 'typify' Thelema … Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica is a religion which celebrates Thelema by way of the Gnostic Mass. Thelema is not a religion." –- [[User:Thiebes\|Joseph Thiebes]], quoted from '' An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass'' by Fr. V.I.T.R.I.O.L.		*"Thelema is a law of nature. It does not require faith, service, devotion, worship, commitment, institutions, attitudes, practices, conformity, causes, principles, or beliefs. (See dictionary definition of religion.) Christianity requires most (if not all) of these things. … Thelema is not a religion. The confusion arises because religious praxis (i.e. practice) is often used in order to understand Thelema and to live in harmony with it. … The Mass has all these things. Thelema does not require them. The fact that the Mass has these elements does not mean that those elements must be present in order to 'typify' Thelema … Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica is a religion which celebrates Thelema by way of the Gnostic Mass. Thelema is not a religion." –- [[User:Thiebes\|Joseph Thiebes]], quoted from '' An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass'' by Fr. V.I.T.R.I.O.L. Thiebes has since said that the above analysis was too simplistic.

	*"Thelema is not a religion in the conventional sense. It is a realization. Initiations are realizations. When we reach higher levels of consciousness and understanding, we transmit, we inspire, as stars we shine. One merely has to be in the presence of a true initiate, with one's mind open, to receive the current. I lay a challenge to all initiates: utilize all the magical energies possible to their maximum potential for the expansion of human consciousness. Reflect! Let the flame of life within us burn brighter. Catalyze!" -- Simon Hinton, ''Liber AL Intelligence''.		*"Thelema is not a religion in the conventional sense. It is a realization. Initiations are realizations. When we reach higher levels of consciousness and understanding, we transmit, we inspire, as stars we shine. One merely has to be in the presence of a true initiate, with one's mind open, to receive the current. I lay a challenge to all initiates: utilize all the magical energies possible to their maximum potential for the expansion of human consciousness. Reflect! Let the flame of life within us burn brighter. Catalyze!" -- Simon Hinton, ''Liber AL Intelligence''.

Horus210: /* See also */

2005-11-18T20:48:53Z

Frater C.U.G.: spellchecked - magickal! ICK!!!!

2005-08-10T03:30:21Z

spellchecked - magickal! ICK!!!!

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:30, 10 August 2005
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	*"Thelema is a law of nature. It does not require faith, service, devotion, worship, commitment, institutions, attitudes, practices, conformity, causes, principles, or beliefs. (See dictionary definition of religion.) Christianity requires most (if not all) of these things. … Thelema is not a religion. The confusion arises because religious praxis (i.e. practice) is often used in order to understand Thelema and to live in harmony with it. … The Mass has all these things. Thelema does not require them. The fact that the Mass has these elements does not mean that those elements must be present in order to 'typify' Thelema … Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica is a religion which celebrates Thelema by way of the Gnostic Mass. Thelema is not a religion." –- [[User:Thiebes\|Joseph Thiebes]], quoted from '' An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass'' by Fr. V.I.T.R.I.O.L.		*"Thelema is a law of nature. It does not require faith, service, devotion, worship, commitment, institutions, attitudes, practices, conformity, causes, principles, or beliefs. (See dictionary definition of religion.) Christianity requires most (if not all) of these things. … Thelema is not a religion. The confusion arises because religious praxis (i.e. practice) is often used in order to understand Thelema and to live in harmony with it. … The Mass has all these things. Thelema does not require them. The fact that the Mass has these elements does not mean that those elements must be present in order to 'typify' Thelema … Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica is a religion which celebrates Thelema by way of the Gnostic Mass. Thelema is not a religion." –- [[User:Thiebes\|Joseph Thiebes]], quoted from '' An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass'' by Fr. V.I.T.R.I.O.L.

	*"Thelema is not a religion in the conventional sense. It is a realization. Initiations are realizations. When we reach higher levels of consciousness and understanding, we transmit, we inspire, as stars we shine. One merely has to be in the presence of a true initiate, with one's mind open, to receive the current. I lay a challenge to all initiates: utilize all the ~~magickal~~ energies possible to their maximum potential for the expansion of human consciousness. Reflect! Let the flame of life within us burn brighter. Catalyze!" -- Simon Hinton, ''Liber AL Intelligence''.		*"Thelema is not a religion in the conventional sense. It is a realization. Initiations are realizations. When we reach higher levels of consciousness and understanding, we transmit, we inspire, as stars we shine. One merely has to be in the presence of a true initiate, with one's mind open, to receive the current. I lay a challenge to all initiates: utilize all the magical energies possible to their maximum potential for the expansion of human consciousness. Reflect! Let the flame of life within us burn brighter. Catalyze!" -- Simon Hinton, ''Liber AL Intelligence''.

	==See also==		==See also==

Frater C.U.G.: spell checked

2005-06-27T12:33:57Z

spell checked

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	:''It is particularly to be noted that Magick, so often mixed up in the popular idea of a religion, has nothing to do with it. It is, in fact, the exact opposite of religion; it is, even more than Physical Science, its irreconcilable enemy.''		:''It is particularly to be noted that Magick, so often mixed up in the popular idea of a religion, has nothing to do with it. It is, in fact, the exact opposite of religion; it is, even more than Physical Science, its irreconcilable enemy.''

	So, from the context of ~~rellgion~~ being that which opposes physical science, Crowley was strongly opposed to the label being applied to Thelema. He clearly defined the primary "method" of Thelema as [[magick]] (''Magick without Tears''):		So, from the context of religion being that which opposes physical science, Crowley was strongly opposed to the label being applied to Thelema. He clearly defined the primary "method" of Thelema as [[magick]] (''Magick without Tears''):

	:''Magick investigates the laws of Nature with the idea of making use of them. It only differs from 'profane' science by always keeping ahead of it. As Fraser has shown, Magick is science in the tentative stage; but it may be, and often is, more than this. It is science which, for one reason or another, cannot be declared to the profane.''		:''Magick investigates the laws of Nature with the idea of making use of them. It only differs from 'profane' science by always keeping ahead of it. As Fraser has shown, Magick is science in the tentative stage; but it may be, and often is, more than this. It is science which, for one reason or another, cannot be declared to the profane.''
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	Some of the [[Gnostic Saints]] are philosophers, including [[Roger Bacon]], [[Wolfgang von Goethe]], and [[Friedrich Nietzsche]]. Crowley was also known to refer to Thelema as a philosophy:		Some of the [[Gnostic Saints]] are philosophers, including [[Roger Bacon]], [[Wolfgang von Goethe]], and [[Friedrich Nietzsche]]. Crowley was also known to refer to Thelema as a philosophy:

	:''These and similar considerations lead to certain types of philosophical ~~scepticism~~. Neschamic conceptions are nowise exempt from this criticism, for, even supposing them identical in any number of persons, their expression, being intellectual, will suffer the same stress as normal perceptions. [...] But none of this shakes, or even threatens, the Philosophy of Thelema. On the contrary, it may be called the Rock of its foundation.'' ("Little Essays Towards Truth", p.61-62)		:''These and similar considerations lead to certain types of philosophical skepticism. Neschamic conceptions are nowise exempt from this criticism, for, even supposing them identical in any number of persons, their expression, being intellectual, will suffer the same stress as normal perceptions. [...] But none of this shakes, or even threatens, the Philosophy of Thelema. On the contrary, it may be called the Rock of its foundation.'' ("Little Essays Towards Truth", p.61-62)

	Within this context, it is possible to say that while Thelema is a philosophy first, it can have a religious expression. In ''Confessions'' (ch.49), Crowley offers the reader multiple meanings of Thelema:		Within this context, it is possible to say that while Thelema is a philosophy first, it can have a religious expression. In ''Confessions'' (ch.49), Crowley offers the reader multiple meanings of Thelema:

Ash at 20:05, 15 June 2005

2005-06-15T20:05:35Z

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	==See also==		==See also==
	*[[Religion]]		*[[Religion]]
			*[[Arguments for why Thelema is a religion]]

	==References==		==References==

Ash at 03:07, 15 June 2005

2005-06-15T03:07:23Z

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			{{religion}}

	In contemporary Thelemic culture, there are many Thelemites who do not consider [[Thelema]] to be a [[religion]]. Among them have developed several '''arguments against Thelema being a religion'''. This article lists some of the more common ones.		In contemporary Thelemic culture, there are many Thelemites who do not consider [[Thelema]] to be a [[religion]]. Among them have developed several '''arguments against Thelema being a religion'''. This article lists some of the more common ones.

Ash: oops

2005-06-14T22:31:01Z

oops

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:31, 14 June 2005
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	==A philosophy first==		==A philosophy first==

	A popular context of Thelema is as a philosophy. In this sense, Thelema deals with many of the classical philosophical issues, such as free will, law, freedom, personal responsibility, right and wrong, social structure, politics, and even the nature of truth. These issues are addressed critically within Thelema, often using the concepts found in ''The Book of the Law'' and in Crowley's writings.		A popular context of Thelema is as a [[philosophy]]. In this sense, Thelema deals with many of the classical philosophical issues, such as free will, law, freedom, personal responsibility, right and wrong, social structure, politics, and even the nature of truth. These issues are addressed critically within Thelema, often using the concepts found in ''The Book of the Law'' and in Crowley's writings.

	Some of the [[Gnostic Saints]] are philosophers, including [[Roger Bacon]], [[Wolfgang von Goethe]], and [[Friedrich Nietzsche]]. Crowley was also known to refer to Thelema as a ~~religion~~:		Some of the [[Gnostic Saints]] are philosophers, including [[Roger Bacon]], [[Wolfgang von Goethe]], and [[Friedrich Nietzsche]]. Crowley was also known to refer to Thelema as a philosophy:

	:''These and similar considerations lead to certain types of philosophical scepticism. Neschamic conceptions are nowise exempt from this criticism, for, even supposing them identical in any number of persons, their expression, being intellectual, will suffer the same stress as normal perceptions. [...] But none of this shakes, or even threatens, the Philosophy of Thelema. On the contrary, it may be called the Rock of its foundation.'' ("Little Essays Towards Truth", p.61-62)		:''These and similar considerations lead to certain types of philosophical scepticism. Neschamic conceptions are nowise exempt from this criticism, for, even supposing them identical in any number of persons, their expression, being intellectual, will suffer the same stress as normal perceptions. [...] But none of this shakes, or even threatens, the Philosophy of Thelema. On the contrary, it may be called the Rock of its foundation.'' ("Little Essays Towards Truth", p.61-62)

Ash: adding philosophy...

2005-06-14T22:29:55Z

adding philosophy...

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 If such things are not required, then nothing is left which can be described as "religious." All that is left is experience that results in direct knowledge, or [[gnosis]].
 ==Contemporary Opinions==
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 *Crowley, Aleister. (1982). ''Magick Without Tears.'' Phoenix, AZ : Falcon Press.
 *____. (1985). ''Eight Lectures on Yoga''. Phoenix, Ariz., U.S.A. : Falcon Press
 *Hinton, Simon. [http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/prkoenig/simon5.htm Liber AL Intelligence]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.
 *Sanborn, Michael. [http://www.ecsd.com/~msanborn/transcend.html Transcending the Predator]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.

Ash at 22:00, 14 June 2005

2005-06-14T22:00:29Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:00, 14 June 2005
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	*V.I.T.R.I.O.L., Fr. [http://www.hermetic.com/egc/mass-analysis.html An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.		*V.I.T.R.I.O.L., Fr. [http://www.hermetic.com/egc/mass-analysis.html An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.
	*Webster, Sam (1993). [http://www.hermetic.com/220/webster-comment.html Analyzing Liber AL vel Legis]. Retrieved 9 March 2005.		*Webster, Sam (1993). [http://www.hermetic.com/220/webster-comment.html Analyzing Liber AL vel Legis]. Retrieved 9 March 2005.
	[[Category:Religion]]		[[Category:Thelema]][[Category:Religion]]

Ash at 21:59, 14 June 2005

2005-06-14T21:59:53Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:59, 14 June 2005
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	If such things are not required, then nothing is left which can be described as "religious." All that is left is experience that results in direct knowledge, or [[gnosis]].		If such things are not required, then nothing is left which can be described as "religious." All that is left is experience that results in direct knowledge, or [[gnosis]].

	==~~Other~~ Contemporary Opinions==		==Contemporary Opinions==

	~~Non-religious views of Thelema are a part~~ of the ~~cultural landscape~~ of ~~contemporary~~ Thelema~~. Non-religious Thelemites may or may not agree on the reasons why they do~~ not ~~consider Thelema~~ a religion. ~~They may also change their opinions over the course of their lifetimes. However~~, the ~~following quotes may give the reader a better understanding of the differing ideas and opinions of those contemporary Thelemites who have written on the topic~~.		*"If we define religion as the institutionalization of solutions to the problems of egocentric power, it is clear that Thelema is not a religion." -- Michael Sanborn, ''Transcending the Predator''.

	*:"~~If we define~~ religion ~~as the institutionalization~~ of ~~solutions~~ to the ~~problems~~ of ~~egocentric power, it is clear that~~ Thelema is not a religion." -~~- Michael Sanborn~~, ''~~Transcending~~ the ~~Predator~~''.		*"Thelema is a law of nature. It does not require faith, service, devotion, worship, commitment, institutions, attitudes, practices, conformity, causes, principles, or beliefs. (See dictionary definition of religion.) Christianity requires most (if not all) of these things. … Thelema is not a religion. The confusion arises because religious praxis (i.e. practice) is often used in order to understand Thelema and to live in harmony with it. … The Mass has all these things. Thelema does not require them. The fact that the Mass has these elements does not mean that those elements must be present in order to 'typify' Thelema … Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica is a religion which celebrates Thelema by way of the Gnostic Mass. Thelema is not a religion." –- [[User:Thiebes\|Joseph Thiebes]], quoted from '' An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass'' by Fr. V.I.T.R.I.O.L.

	*:"Thelema is a ~~law of nature~~. It does not require faith, service, devotion, worship, commitment, institutions, attitudes, practices, conformity, causes, principles, or beliefs. (See dictionary definition of religion.) Christianity requires most (if not all) of these things. … Thelema is ~~not~~ a ~~religion~~. ~~The confusion arises because religious praxis (i~~.e. ~~practice) is often used in order~~ to ~~understand Thelema and to live~~ in ~~harmony~~ with it. ~~… The Mass has~~ all ~~these things. Thelema does not require them. The fact that~~ the ~~Mass has these elements does not mean that those elements must be present in order~~ to ~~'typify' Thelema … Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica is a religion which celebrates Thelema by way~~ of the ~~Gnostic Mass. Thelema is not a religion~~." –- ~~[[User:Thiebes\|Joseph Thiebes]]~~, ~~quoted from~~ '' ~~An Analysis of the Gnostic Mass~~'' ~~by Fr. V.I.T.R.I.O.L~~.		*"Thelema is not a religion in the conventional sense. It is a realization. Initiations are realizations. When we reach higher levels of consciousness and understanding, we transmit, we inspire, as stars we shine. One merely has to be in the presence of a true initiate, with one's mind open, to receive the current. I lay a challenge to all initiates: utilize all the magickal energies possible to their maximum potential for the expansion of human consciousness. Reflect! Let the flame of life within us burn brighter. Catalyze!" -- Simon Hinton, ''Liber AL Intelligence''.

	*:"Thelema is not a religion in the conventional sense. It is a realization. Initiations are realizations. When we reach higher levels of consciousness and understanding, we transmit, we inspire, as stars we shine. One merely has to be in the presence of a true initiate, with one's mind open, to receive the current. I lay a challenge to all initiates: utilize all the magickal energies possible to their maximum potential for the expansion of human consciousness. Reflect! Let the flame of life within us burn brighter. Catalyze!" -- Simon Hinton, ''Liber AL Intelligence''.		==See also==
			*[[Religion]]

	*:"Thelema is not a religion, though, IMO. Arguably it is not intended to touch on issues such as morality and conscience; the moral tools we have on hand are weak and unworkable. Thelema seems to be a system of magick and mystical advancement and little else. Furthermore, I don't think that thelemites could agree on any code of ethics long enough to form any kind of social movement." -- Callisto Radiant, quoted from ''Centers of Pestilence: Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword''.
	==References==		==References==
	*Crowley, Aleister. (1982). ''Magick Without Tears.'' Phoenix, AZ : Falcon Press.		*Crowley, Aleister. (1982). ''Magick Without Tears.'' Phoenix, AZ : Falcon Press.
	*____. (1985). Eight Lectures on Yoga. Phoenix, Ariz., U.S.A. : Falcon Pr		*____. (1985). ''Eight Lectures on Yoga''. Phoenix, Ariz., U.S.A. : Falcon Press
	~~ch 2005.~~
	*Hinton, Simon. [http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/prkoenig/simon5.htm Liber AL Intelligence]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.		*Hinton, Simon. [http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/prkoenig/simon5.htm Liber AL Intelligence]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.
	*Sanborn, Michael. [http://www.ecsd.com/~msanborn/transcend.html Transcending the Predator]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.		*Sanborn, Michael. [http://www.ecsd.com/~msanborn/transcend.html Transcending the Predator]. Retrieved 8 March 2005.

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:48, 18 November 2005
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	==See also==		==See also==
	*[[Religion]]		*[[Religion]]
	*[[Arguments for ~~why~~ Thelema is a religion]]		*[[Arguments for Thelema being a religion]]

	==References==		==References==